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Marriage and Religion

Entry 154, on 2023-11-06 at 18:22:09

I follow several conservative commentators on-line. I see myself as more a libertarian than a conservative, but I agree with a lot of conservative views, until it somes to religion! This debate involved a YouTube video by conservative Candace Owens, who claimed atheists had no need or right to marriage. The movie was called "Why Do Atheists Get Married? whatever Candace Owens".

Me It's the biggest weakness for many conservatives: their silly religious views. Smart people (Candace, Ben) sound pretty irrational when it comes to their religious views.

Supporter Spot on.

Opponent What is it that is "silly" about believing in God? What makes you not believe or seek God?

Me Well, there is absolutely no good reason to think a god exists, and believing in the myths of existing religions is even worse than just believing in the concept of a god. I have studied religions, been to churches, debated believers, etc. The more I seek, the less I find.

Supporter A god is by any commonly held definition a magical being. That puts them in the same category as wizards, witches and leprechauns. If you're over the age of 5 and you tell me wizards are real, I'm going to look at you funny. Why should God get a pass? It's basically the same thing it's a sort of genie-type character.

While I don't fully go along with diminishing religion by comparing it with common fantasy beliefs, like wizards, I do take the point. I do think god has a more interesting cultural and philosophical basis than wizards though, so I avoid this argument.

Other Person It's not silly to believe in God. It's silly to think that people who don't believe in God have no moral principles. It's like saying if don't believe in God then you can't have any standards which sets a dangerous presidence. The world is already grossly in moral decline.

I had problems making sense of this comment, so I didn't even know if it really counted as being from an opponent or a supporter!

Opponent What is irrational about what she said, if someone wants to get married he goes before a priest and makes his/her vows in front of the alter (of God) in a church or temple etc. If you don't believe there is a god, why bother making that vow in front of God in his alter? Are you doing it to mock God or yourself or just for show. What is the point? This is what she is saying. Perfectly rational argument.

The problem here is that there are many ways to be married without involving religion. Sure, in the past religion was almost always involved, but that isn't the case any more.

Opponent Just remember that silly religious views are the reason that this country exists in the first place. IN GOD WE TRUST. Or do you only believe in that when it's on the back of your dollar?

Me She said why would atheists get married? Because it's a social norm, irrespective of religion. She talked about getting married, not a religious ceremony in a church. I have no idea what connection that has to topless pictures on Instagram. Few people want to mock god, just many of us think he doesn't exist.

I can't remember why I referred to "topless pictures" here. My guess is, it was a comment someone made, then deleted again. That happens a bit when people regret things they say.

Supporter LOL, wut? This country exists because people were trying to figure out a cheaper way to ship spices around and make money.

Me I agree it is silly to think you need a god to be moral. History often shows the complete opposite. I do think it is silly to believe in something where there is no good reason to think it exists, though.

Arthur C Clarke said one of the biggest problems with modern society is how morality is connected to religion. Sure, there are moral elements to religion, but there are in many other things too. And look at the history of atrocities associated with religion. How are those moral?

Me I thought the founding fathers of your country (I don't like in the US) deliberately tried to separate religion and politics?

Opponent The founding fathers of the United States separated the church from the state, so that the state could not interfere with religious beliefs. The original settlers in the colonies, for the most part, were here to escape religious persecution. And just for the record, I love my Country. I hate the way it's being run.

I think it was as much for the opposite reason: to stop religion interfering with government, but that is largely irrelevant to this discussion anyway.

Supporter Are you absolutely certain that the people on the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria were not Protestants trying to escape religious persecution?

Me I hate to comment on other people's countries, but I get the impression the founding principles of the US were not primarily religious. And yes, I know many people were escaping persecution. I'm not saying religion isn't important. And I love the US too, although I recognise it has many problems.

Opponent Oh yes, we have plenty of problems. I think we're getting confused on language usage. Non-indigenous people to this land originally we're not here for religious reasons. Later, as people were being persecuted for the religious beliefs, they fled to the new land. Neither here nor there, once upon a time, the majority of the commoners had an entity of worship that promoted a high level of morality and decency. They didn't lose sight of the fact that their Bible is literally an instruction manual to life, hence noble phrases like "In God We Trust". See... It was WE trust.

Me I can't agree that "the majority of the commoners had an entity of worship that promoted a high level of morality and decency" (look at the history of religious wars and other atrocities) or that "their Bible is literally an instruction manual to life" (it gets so much wrong, especially in a modern context). I also don't agree that "In God We Trust" is in any way noble. Also, it was added through a conservative political agenda as the official motto in 1956, yes?

Opponent You sure have a lot of words in your mouth for someone that's not American. I really don't give a shit what you agree with.

I think I sort of made a point there that my opponent couldn't refute (that the motto on the money was introduced relatively recently, for political purposes) and so I got this insulting response.

Me Well, OK. If I am wrong about something you could just tell me. As a non-American I am interested in American perspectives, given it is the dominant society right now.

Supporter I've always said the exact same thing. A lot of them are so intelligent, but when they start rambling on about religion, that's when they fall off.

Supporter I'm glad I'm a conservative and an atheist... Haha. But stuff like this makes me lose respect for Candace a little. It's just an over the top ridiculous question.

Opponent You're not seeking to find God you're just wondering about wanting to condemn his existence..."no good reason to think he exist" you're either not reasoning enough or I'll take it your just ignorant.

If my opponent thinks I'm ignorant, why not just provide the information I lack? They never have anything when challenged; just very generalised catchphrases like "you're not reasoning enough".

Me Well, no. I tried to apply rational reasoning to the question and I still see no reason to believe a god exists. If you have any good evidence, let me know. Always happy to look at new facts.

Supporter I got married at a golf course.

Me I did have a religious marriage ceremony, but only to keep the family happy. The religious aspects of it meant nothing to me.

Opponent have you tried going to Bible classes and studying the Bible not "reading it like a novel" have you tried going on pilgrimage... only a canal mind believe there's no God, there's more to this world than what meets the eyes... seek and you shall find.

Me I have read the Bible and been to church meetings with evangelists. Also debated some high profile Christian apologists. The more I discover, the less likely it seems that Christianity is true. Again, what evidence do you have?

Opponent You said "the less likely" sounds funny, like you said you "read" not study in due time he'll reveal himself to you.

There is always this promise of God revealing himself, but for an entity who seems to have an unhealthy obsession with people worshipping him, he sure makes his presence obscure. If a god existed, would it not be obvious?

Opponent But if u aren't religious why get married is not about believe in god or not the reason marriage started is bc of religious reasons so if u aren't religious what the point lol OJB.

Me I would have to say that seems unlikely. After all, there are more non-Christians than Christians so his "revealing" isn't going so well, is it?

Me Marriage is a social contract and not necessarily related to religion.

Me Marriage did not start for religious reasons, and even if it did, why would that matter today when it is a well established secular social institution?

When challenged to provide evidence, there never is any. And when I demonstrate a greater knowledge of American history than my American opponents (such as the origin of "In God we trust") that doesn't tend to go down too well! We all have our weaknesses, and the major conservative weakness is religion, IMHO.