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Those Christians!

Entry 973, on 2009-03-24 at 22:57:29 (Rating 3, Religion)

There have been many occasions in this blog where I have been critical of religion and treated it with general disdain. I have also explained my reasons for being an atheist and presented the opinion that it is the only truly ethical philosophical position to take. Despite the fact that science, which is basically irreligious, is the most important aspect of modern civilisation there is still a large majority of people in the world who are religious.

I would contend that the major reason for this is pure habit and laziness. If there was something overwhelmingly convincing about a religion (and most believers claim their particular religion is something special) then we might expect people all over the world to more-or-less spontaneously convert. That doesn't happen. People tend to stick with the traditional beliefs of their society and generally only convert through vigorous persuasion - and sometimes through force or what is effectively bribery!

So if atheism is so great why isn't it taking over the world? Well maybe slowly it is. Even in the US, which has had a strong religious tradition, there are signs that religion is beginning to slip as the dominant belief system.

For example, the current US president still claims to be a Christian but I think we would say he is a quite different type of Christian than the previous one! At least he doesn't let religion interfere with valuable science (like stem cell research) and he doesn't think god talks to him by telling him to smite his enemies!

A recent survey in the US showed a gradual increase in people reporting themselves as atheists and a corresponding reduction in those who said they were religious. To be fair, the number of atheists is still only 15% but this is in a country where atheism is treated with great disdain by a lot of the population.

The title of the article reporting the survey was: There’s a new power in America - atheism. This is true, I think, despite the rather low percentage of atheists. At least now atheism is being discussed and, with the new president, extremist religion has lost a lot of its power.

Outside the US its a mixture of gains and losses. Discussions originating from people like Richard Dawkins have made the atheist and scientific perspective more prominent but there are the occasional counter-attacks by fundies trying to push creationism into schools and other areas where it doesn't belong.

Its all good fun really, as long as it doesn't incite more violent reactions like the "Christian" I heard on a recent US radio show who threatened the atheist presenter by saying he would "punch your fat head in for Jesus". Ah those Christians... they'd do anything for Jesus!

Comment 1 (1903) by SBFL on 2009-04-01 at 06:34:52: (view recent only)

I go away for a few months and come back to hear the needle is stuck. Oh dear.

Now as for saying that 15% of the US are atheists...I think you put the decimal point in the wrong place... 1.5% seems more accurate.

Comment 2 (1904) by SBFL on 2009-04-01 at 06:37:02:

How's it going, by the way? I needed to buy a computer for my new home, and sorry to say but I bought an Acer with Windows Vista on it. The Mac's in the shop did look damn tasty but the Acer won out on the cost benefit analysis I'm afraid.

Comment 3 (1905) by OJB on 2009-04-01 at 18:26:44:

You quote numbers 7 years out of date. I quote numbers from within the last few months. Who is likely to me more accurate, do you think? As far as I am aware my numbers are correct - the source was credible.

Well good luck with Vista... you'll need it!

Comment 4 (1906) by OJB on 2009-04-01 at 18:33:33:

Maybe the source of confusion is the label. While a small number of people label themselves as atheists a much larger number say they have no religion. Apparently you are quoting the first number and I am using the second.

From the report on the survey: "In broad terms, ARIS 2008 found a consolidation and strengthening of shifts signaled in the 2001 survey. The percentage of Americans claiming no religion, which jumped from 8.2 in 1990 to 14.2 in 2001, has now increased to 15 percent. Given the estimated growth of the American adult population since the last census from 207 million to 228 million, that reflects an additional 4.7 million Nones."

Comment 5 (1907) by SBFL on 2009-04-02 at 08:18:39:

Yes I realise that the source is not brand new but I thought even you would know that the number has not grown 1000-1500% in 5 years. And I at least provided the source.

Comment 4 reveals what you have misled your public on. Now you admit to fabricating the facts by saying you now mean those who say they have no religion, rather than professed atheists. That's akin to me claiming all Protestants are to be included in the number for Catholics since they also believe in Jesus. i.e. nonsense. I thought you had better standards than this.

Comment 6 (1908) by OJB on 2009-04-02 at 16:15:17:

Since atheism is the lack of belief in a religion or god and 15% said they had no religion I don't think it was too much of a jump to make. I must admit that I didn't notice that the article I read had made that step until you pointed it out.

I can't see how it is similar to including Protestants with Catholics unless you were trying to discuss a bigger group such as Christians (and I was discussing a bigger group: people who aren't religious).

I guess its just a matter of definition. Maybe I should have used the word "non-religious" instead of atheist but I don't think the two terms are so different that it detracts from what I was saying.

Comment 7 (1909) by OJB on 2009-04-02 at 18:08:03:

And on a related topic, what about this: NZers becoming less religious: Survey

Comment 8 (1911) by SBFL on 2009-04-03 at 07:20:28:

Re comment 6: Sorry but you are well versed in the topic enough to know it is chalk and cheese. Or at best chalk and cheese with a light dusting of chalk powder.

Re comment 7: Well there is nothing new in the main topic, just need to have a look at the census results over the past 25 years for a definitive confirmation. What is alarming though is this: However, 60 per cent said they would prefer children to have religious education in state primary schools,.... Surprised me.

Comment 9 (1913) by OJB on 2009-04-03 at 10:14:39:

Re your comment on my comment 6: I disagree. The only difference between atheists and non-religious people is their degree of commitment. Atheists are just a bit more forward in announcing their non-belief and others generally just don't care. At least that's my experience (admittedly anecdotal).

Re your comment on my comment 7: But if you look at that 60% they were saying they wanted all religions taught, so it sounded more like a mythology or comparative religion class than the usual religious proselytising we see.

Comment 10 (1914) by SBFL on 2009-04-04 at 05:49:03:

So you class yourself with the ambivalents, such self denigration!! I'll wager 50% of those non-committals will believe there is _something_ out there, they just don't know what it is, and are to lazy to find out either way. Many will also even believe in God but don't see themselves as a member of any established Church. There is no need to justify your views by including this rabble in your number. We still respect you for your views even if self-identified atheists are small in number...;-)

Re comment 7: I wouldn't use those words so much, but I see your comment. If anything this emphasises my above point. They don't necessarily hold the same philosophy as atheists as such, but rather more like lost sheep. How do you think those evangelical churches get so big...?

Comment 11 (1917) by OJB on 2009-04-04 at 13:17:02:

Re comment 6. They specifically said they didn't believe in a god. Believing there might be "something" out there is really meaningless. Also, there are probably many people who count themselves as Christians who have no real commitment to the religion and probably know nothing about it, so it works both ways.

I don't follow your logic in your follow up to comment 7.

Comment 12 (1920) by SBFL on 2009-04-04 at 21:23:29:

Sorry it's hard to debate when you don't provide the source, but I'll take your word about respondents specifically saying they didn't believe in God.
You're correct about there being some Christians who don't know much about their faith.
Should read "but I see your point".

Comment 13 (1925) by OJB on 2009-04-05 at 11:04:17:

Original source is here.

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